A seminar with Grandmaster Ho Kam Ming 何金銘
(part 3)
Chum Kiu
Question: What's the main thing that Chum Kiu develops? What is it's purpose?
Master Ho: Chum Kiu teaches you how to control your motions while turning. Siu Lim Tau develops techniques in a stationary position. In Chum Kiu, even though you're turning, you still can control that motion--much like a stationary position. This will develop turning, balance and unity. Chum Kiu means "Searching for the Bridge." The bridge refers to the person's hand or arm. When you face an opponent and go in, you go in the center. When his hands come into play, you can touch or feel for the hands; then you can control him--that's "Searching for the Bridge." Remember, if the opponent doesn't block you, or bring his hands up--just go in the centerline.
Question: If you have a powerful opponent and he comes after you with wide swinging motions--how would you handle this? How would you end the fight?
Master Ho: If your opponent attacks you in this way--according to theory you should be able to use a straight line punch to beat the wide motion. This is because the timing is longer. But if he's already in, you may be able to deflect his power. If he's too strong then just step away. (Master Ho demonstrated how to deflect power left or right by using Bong Sau or Taan Sau).
Question: How do you deal with a flicking attack or a fake?
Master Ho: Just attack, go right in. (Master Ho demonstrated how one may simply attack when faked). Also, some people try to scare you by stomping on the floor, etc; just strike out withyour fist.
Question: If confronted, do you look at the eyes or the hands?
Master Ho: If you look at the hand, you lose everything. Look at the eyes.
Question: So moving inward can effectively jam a technique?
Master Ho: Don't just run into the opponent. You must adjust the distance. If the distance allows you to go in--do so; don't go in blind. If you can't control the opponent, don't go in. Close the gap and strike when you should--don't when you shouldn't. (Master Ho demonstrated an "inside facing" punch). Some people duck when punched. In Wing Chun you can attack by changing the angle--without ducking.
Question: Could you comment on the concept of "Sinking the Bridge." Doesn't Chum Kiu also mean this?
Master Ho: Sinking the Bridge is an application. (Master Ho demonstrated how to drop the elbow in defense of a body punch). Searching for the Bridge is the name of the form. "Chum" Kiu, or "sinking" bridge, is a technique. But the meaning of the form is "Searching for the Bridge." Don't confuse this.
Question: Why does the Wing Chun style always teach one to look at the eyes? Other styles teach to look elsewhere.
Master Ho: For example, if you look down while I punch, you'll miss what's coming. By looking at the eyes you'llsee the whole picture.
Question: What's the difference between the Pai Jong (Hacking Elbow) and Lon Sau (Bar Arm)?
Master Ho: Lon Sau can help you to get out from a grab. By turning, you use the whole body to bring your hand up. (A demonstration followed in which master Ho easily brought his hand back from a double grab position).
Question: Where does the power originate in the turning position? Is it the knees?
Master Ho: It's not just the knees; the whole body assists in the turn. If you turn the whole body as a unit--you can get more power. This is better then using just the hip or knees, etc. The idea here is unity.
Question: But where does the turn originate? How do you turn?
Master Ho: You can't say exactly where the turn originates, for the whole body turns. The feet, knees, hip, and body all work together. You can't say, that's where the turn originates. This is why you have to practice. In order to know exactly how to generate power, you need to practice in order to feel your motion. This is the only way to know these things.
Question: Is the Turning Elbow (Pai Jong) technique lower than the same technique in Siu Lim Tau?
Master Ho: No, it's about the same. But, when you perform the Turning Elbows, it's important to learn how to turn the technique with the body. In application you need to control your motion.You see how close the subject is and therefore how much to turn. This you need to adjust, you can tell how much by experience.
Question: Toward the end of Chum Kiu, are there not two circle side kicks executed?
Sifu Fong: In the beginning, we use all front kicks. If you can't do a front kick right, you can't do a side kick. The front kick is the basic kick for the Wing Chun style. At the end of the form there is a "left" circle front kick.
Master Ho: According to human behavior, everyone uses the right leg automatically. In Wing Chun we develop the left leg. If you concentrate on the left leg, you'll be able to use both legs equally. It's the same principle behind developing the punches: left, right, left in the forms. Develop the left more than the right.
Question: In Chum Kiu set, why does the Drilling Punch go upward, like an "Uppercut?"
Master Ho: Has everyone seen Mike Tyson fight? Well, I feel he's the first fighter to effectively use the Uppercut. Yet, in Wing Chun, we already had this punch a couple hundred years ago. You see, under the chin is a point and, when hit, causes an immediate knock out--the brain is sent to the top of the head. It can even kill.
Question: How many triangles are there in the structure? And does that change with the movement of the opponent?
Master Ho: (Here, master Ho demonstrated how to use triangles in group fighting).
Question: How many triangles are there in one's own structure?
Master Ho: (Master Ho demonstrated how changing the line also changes the triangle.) No matter how many triangles there are, they all focus or lay on the centerline.
Question: How do you get power in your front kick? Other arts use a kind of wind up to generate force.
Master Ho: The Wing Chun kick uses Bone Joint Power. It comes directly from the floor and goes forward. If you bring the leg up first and then kick, there are two motions. Anyway, the Wing Chun kick is not used all the time, only when necessary. This is because when you use a kicking technique, you have only one leg on the ground. You can be attacked easily. If you kick me, I can avoid the kick by moving one inch. When you miss, I can get you; I can go in.
Question: What's the purpose of the Fok Sau technique in Chum Kiu?
Master Ho: From an outside position, Fok Sau will cover your opening. The purpose is first to bring the elbow in to cover oneself. If you bring the hand in only, you will miss the block. Learn how to control your elbow. Also, Fun Sau (which is applied before) is executed toward the side in the form. But this technique can be applied to the front.
Question: Wing Chun doesn't advocate ducking. Many styles know this and use this against us. Is there a reason for this? How can you fight against other styles if you don't duck?
Master Ho: According to Wing Chun theory, we don't duck, we keep our position. If your position is right, no one can get into your area. In Wing Chun, the whole structure is protecting your body; that is, as long as you play your own game. In Wing Chun we have a saying, "Glass head, tofu chest, and iron bridge." The bridge protects the head and body--the glass head and tofu chest. If you get hit in the head, it's like glass; in the chest and it's like tofu--smashed. The hand is like an iron bridge--the hand is the guard.
Question: But don't you think it's a disadvantage that other styles know our methods? Shouldn't one do something different?
Master Ho: No matter what system you are facing, just play your own game. Your own game is to adjust your distance, timing, etc. You will win.
Question: At the beginning of the second section of Chum Kiu, you turn with Lon Sau and form a fist. Is this for attacking? Is this a punch?
Master Ho: It is a fist, but it is not for striking. This motion allows one to stick and follow the opponent's hand.
Question: Is the Arm Catching (Jip Sau) motion for breaking an arm, controlling, or what?
Master Ho: This is an arm break, but the way you are demonstrating it is lousy. If I do it like you, with the elbow down and in, the punch will get through. (Here master Ho discussed the hand closest to the body.) The elbow has to be out; this way you can catch the arm. In Wing Chun not all the techniques have the elbow in. You have to know this.
Question: What's the best way to fight a group of people?
Master Ho: When you fight, use hand techniques more than kicks. Use the hands 80% of the time; especially when you fight more than one person. Use the legs to move the center, adjust the angle.
Question: How does the eye power of Chum Kiu differ from that of Siu Lim Tau?
Master Ho: In both forms, learn how to control the eyes. Look straight forward, that is the main idea. Learn to develop periphery vision.
Question: If one initiates an attack first in a fight, where is the best place to strike?
Master Ho: Strike the weakest point--the chest. If you attack the head you may cause a cut, but if you attack the chest it involves the heart. This is a killing point. No matter how big you are--one good punch here and you can not take it.
Question: When's the best time to strike? When the subject is breathing in or out?
Master Ho: This kind of timing doesn't matter, you can go in anytime.
Question: In the proverbs it states, "Use escaping hand to turn around the situation." What's this mean?
Master Ho: If you can't do it, don't worry. For example, books say you can jump ten feet high! But this is only writing; can I do it? That's a different story. If you want to understand a thing, learn to do it. If you can apply the theory, that's good, that's what you should concentrate on.
Question: Again, what's the fist for in the Lon Sau technique? Is this a grab?
Master Ho: This allows one to stabilize the bridge. If it's open here, it won't be correct or stabilized.
Question: So it's not a grab?
Master Ho: No, and when you grab someone you must be careful--it's very dangerous. If you grab my hand, I'll break your wrist. In China, these locking techniques were quite popular. Today theypractice Tiger Claw or Wu Shu but won't allow the citizens to practice Wing Chun and such. This is because they don't want ordinary people better than those in the government. This is one reason why Wing Chun is being lost in the Chinese mainland.
Question: Could you explain the application of the Low Wing Block (Bong Sau)?
Master Ho: (Master Ho demonstrated how a punch is deflected downward from a regular Bong Sau position, thus forming a low Bong Sau). The low Bong Sau follows the power. If the force is too heavy, just go with it. Don't block the punch upward; you should flow down. Also, in the form, two low Bong Sau's are applied together. But by the time you apply the Bong Sau, use only one hand. Remember, when you apply this, never use two Bong Sau's at the same time.
Question: Why does the "Inside Line" punch (from Lon Sau) come from the elbow rather than the centerline?
Master Ho: From a slight sideways position, the centerline is here. (Master Ho indicated one must use this motion to regain the centerline). If one punches from the center, there's no control--the opponent's punch gets in. Use this motion to clear the line of attack.
Question: What's the meaning behind the "Step Forward" Double Palm technique in the third section of Chum Kiu?
Master Ho: This push allows the whole body to move together. This develops unity; it teaches one how to move the entire body forward.
Question: Should the Front Kick be practiced more than any other kick?
Master Ho: The Front Kick is the most important kick in Wing Chun. When you fight, your opponent is facing you. The kick to use is the front kick. If you turn or use a side kick, you may lose everything.
Question: Could you explain the difference between Siu Lim Tau and Chum Kiu techniques in relation to distance in fighting?
Master Ho: When you're talking about forms, since there's no subject before you, it's difficult to speak of distance. Distance only applies when you have an opponent in front of you.
Question: After the Stepping Bong Sau, you "drop" the hands (Chum Kiu) crossing them. Do you maintain the same line?
Master Ho: Yes, when you drop, since you're turned, it looks like you're off the centerline. But really the centerline is still here (toward the center). In this motion the elbows should be slightly out. Don't squeeze them inward. But yes, the intersection of the hands is on the centerline.
Question: What's the correct angle for the Brush Hand (Tuit Sau). How far away from the body should the hand be?
Master Ho: Go straight down. The hand should be close to the body. You can use this motion to dissolve a grab. If you go forward you can not dissolve the technique.
Question: Could you talk about Huen Sau (Circle Hand)? Is this a grab?
Master Ho: In Wing Chun forms you see inside circling, but not outside grabbing. The circle is inside, we don't use an outside circle (Grab Hand) too much. If you use an outside circle (Grab), your opponent can just snap down and break your wrist. But Huen Sau is really for regaining your position or line. (Master Ho demonstrated a Huen Sau followed by a low side palm).
Question: What's the application for the dropping Chum Kiu (Cross Hand) technique which follows Stepping Bong Sau?
Master Ho: When you apply Bong Sau, your lower gate is all open. This motion allows you to drop the hands to protect the body.
Question: Could you explain a little about the Backward Step (Toi Ma) in the Chum Kiu?
Master Ho: When you step Backward here, it allows you to regain your balance easier than by going forward. Remember, Chum Kiu teaches one how to control the balance in movement.
Question: Do you snap both wrists when you execute the Jip Sau (Arm Catching) motion?
Master Ho: Yes, both hands snap at the same time. The timing must be right.
Question: What's the application for Gum Sau (Pinning Hand) near the end of Chum Kiu form?
Master Ho: Gum Sau teaches you to block. When you use it, though, don't just use the hand, use the entire arm. Remember to bend the elbow; don't lock the arm.
Question: When you execute the Double Palm and push both feet together, it doesn't seem to be a strong base, does it?
Master Ho: The purpose of this technique is first, to practice moving forward while maintaining the center of gravity. Second, so you can execute a turn kick. For example, the legs must be close together to perform the kick. In the form you practice the basics, in fighting you can do whatever you wish.
Question: Could you explain the application of the Rising Punch from the Gum Sau position?
Master Ho: (A demonstration was presented in which a Rising Punch follows a blocked kick--Gum Sau). Remember, the elbow should be bent. Also, after the block, you should punch immediately--attack right away.
Question: Where does the gate end for the hands and the legs take over? Does it end where the Gum Sau position is?
Master Ho: If a kick comes into your hand area, fine. But don't chase the leg. Keep your hands in position. If the attack is lower than the waist, use the your legs. Don't follow the kick with your hands. Also, if the knee is used to block a kick, don't bring it straight up--use a circular knee technique.
Question: In Searching for the Bridge is the idea to destroy and control the bridge? Or perhaps just to feel for it?
Master Ho: In the real meaning for Chum Kiu, it's not breaking or controlling; that's the application. Searching for the Bridge is the name and meaning of the form.
Question: Is there a meaning and application for the double Taan Sau before and after the Stepping Low Bong Sau?
Master Ho: Not really, this is only to set up for the next Bong Sau. (Here master Ho indicated nobody has asked about the main point of Chum Kiu. He asked, "What's the main technique in the form?")
Question: Is it the control of the center of gravity; maintaining the centerline?
Master Ho: That's been discussed already. What's the main motion Chum Kiu develops? That has not been brought up as yet.
Question: Is it the Bong Sau motion?
Master Ho: Which one.
Question: The Stepping Bong Sau (Tor Ma Bong Sau, replied Dan M.)?
Master Ho: Yes, right (applause). This motion uses a side position and goes sideways. But in application you go forward. The purpose for going sideways is to develop and maintain your center of gravity while moving. If you practice going forward in the beginning, you lose your balance; so you step sideways. Remember, in application, you go forward.
Question: Could you talk some more about Bong Sau? I've never heard that idea before.
Master Ho: When you're attacked, it's difficult to tell where the attack is coming from. The Bong Sau only protects your body. When the punch comes in, that's the time to use it. Other then that, you can use Taan Sau or Pak Sau. Bong Sau is applied after touching; when you feel something, then you use Bong Sau. Bong Sau and the "elbow up" is used for close fighting--to save your position. You use Bong Sau after the hand is already in. Don't use it if the attack is still outside.
Question: Then is Bong Sau considered an "emergency" block?
Master Ho: In a way, yes; when you're in danger. Also, Bong Sau controls the force of others.
Question: Could you show how Bong Sau is used moving forward?
Master Ho: When your opponent attempts to change attacks, you can jam his motion. (Master Ho demonstrated.) Use the body to step in; it's not the hands so much as the body moving forward.
Question: For a high punch, how would you block?
Master Ho: In Wing Chun, "offense is defense." (Master Ho demonstrated an Inside Rising punch to deflect a punch. He then executed a strike over a low blow controlling the attack. These are examples of Searching for the Bridge.) Also, a lot of people step back in defense of an attack. In real Wing Chun, we go in--get the right structure, position. One should attack, don't move away--move in--go forward. If you don't do it right--you will miss the block and you may get hit. If your timing and position are right then you will be alright. That's why you need someone always around, pointing out your mistakes.
Question: Besides Bong Sau (Wing Block), are there other motions that are important?
Master Ho: All techniques are important; each can counter one another. But it's vital to touch and then apply the techniques. This is why we have Sticky Hands; you touch and apply. This is called application after touching.
Question: How can you get away from an outside grab besides applying Biu Sau (Shooting Fingers)?
Master Ho: You don't need a big motion--just turn the hand over and apply Taan Sau. (Ho Kam Ming demonstrated how Taan Sau can easily break an outside grab).
Question: About a Step/Slide (Tor Ma)--Do you drag the back leg?
Master Ho: Slide the back leg.
Question: Are you pushing off also?
Master Ho: Yes, when you push yourself forward, you also control your center of gravity. If you push two inches--you step two inches. Keep the distance constant between the feet.
Question: Could you talk about mobility. For example, in application, when's the right time to change your stance?
Master Ho: Mobility depends upon the opponent--try to adjust to his movement. If you do it by yourself--you can't develop any kind of ability. You need a target to really develop mobility.
Question: Could you show some examples?
Master Ho: Yes. (Master Ho demonstrated some angling steps, Saam Gok Ma, etc.)
Question: Could you comment on "front body" versus "side body" fighting?
Master Ho: Wing Chun is a natural system. If two birds are fighting, and one bird faces away, he will get it. Better yet, if two dogs fight and one turns away, the one turning will get bitten. It's the same for two boxers--if you turn sideways then you'll lose--you lose one side, one hand. When you punch with that hand, you have to change your center. When you move, I can punch you right then. Or if I want, I can just control you by holding your shoulder, keeping you from turning toward me. Because of this, Wing Chun doesn't fight sideways. Basically, Wing Chun fights front on (one leg forward). This way both hands can be used equally.
Question: If I'm like this (Side Body Stance--Juk Sun Ma), is this considered Pin Sun (Side Body)?
Master Ho: No, this is still Front Body (Jing Sun).
Question: Should we combine horizontal and vertical leg positioning in fighting?
Master Ho: (Master Ho moved forward and backward and had sifu Fong execute combination stances). When you're beginning, you can use a flat stance (Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma) in practice. If you can not control your stances (if you can't do it), don't fight with one leg forward. This way you can move to both sides equally. If you can't be flexible with your stances, when you stand this way (forward leg), you may have only one way to go--you can't develop equally.
Question: Does height matter? If I fight a taller person, do I have to angle out more?
Master Ho: No matter--tall or short--they have to come into your position. Just play your own game.
Question: But, do I need more footwork for a bigger person?
Master Ho: When you fight, it's better to stabilize your movement. The more you move around, the more room you give to the opponent to attack.
Question: Could you talk about the Wing Chun principle, "If you move, I move faster."
Master Ho: Well, in order to move faster--the first thing you need is correct structure. If your structure is right, you can attack right away. But if your structure isn't good, even if you are faster, your opponent will get in.
Question: As a beginner, I don't understand the pivot (turning stance). When would I use it?
Master Ho: Turning allows you to get your center of gravity. If you turn too much you lose the position--not enough and you lose your balance. Correct turning allows you to be strong--the structure will be perfect; then no one can move you so easy.
Question: Why is it that so many exponents turn incorrectly? They put all the weight on their rear leg and move the vertical axis line "to and fro?"
Master Ho: It's because that person or the person who taught him didn't know how to find his center of gravity. It's really like spelling a word; if it's spelled incorrectly you don't pay attention, you keep making the same mistake. You keep spelling the word wrong.
-Compiled and edited by Curt James
Included courtesy of Wing Chun Chinese Martial Arts Association
